Episode 2 – Betting on Yourself Dan Gould’s CreativeJourney and Taking Risks

Show Transcript:

I would say for anyone who’s like trying to either level up, get a new field, just start engaging or creating content around whatever that is. And just putting yourself out there. That’s the main thing. I think just simply sending out resumes clearly does not work for a lot of people. So, it’s like you have to create something, outside of that, that very linear path, whether it’s a podcast or whether it’s posting on LinkedIn or doing your own social media. I think for all stages of people, you have to figure out some version of that these days. Because otherwise you’re just another name in a sea of people.

~Dan Gould

Episode 2 Transcript:

Bob Raynor

Today I’m excited to welcome Dan Gould to the flame. Dan is a top voice in cultural strategy and innovation, with a wealth of experience leading teams at Reddit, Google and Sparks and Honey. He’s worked with brands like Disney and Unilever and has a passion for uncovering insights that drive creativity. Dan’s journey is all about finding the human truths that connect us, and I can’t wait to dive into his story today.

Bob Raynor

So, you got a chance to listen to the first episode?

Dan Gould

A chunk of it. But, So, I guess I’m, like, starting to interview you. So, just walk me through why you started this podcast? Because I think I’ve seen what you’ve written about it, but I feel like there’s definitely a big need for people to kind of have inspiration during this crazy, kind of very unusual world of work that’s, that’s come about in the last year or so.

Bob Raynor

Yeah. It was part of that. It was, it was, you know, just trying to figure out what I wanted to do. You know, it was, my time with, with Dragons group was cut short. I was kind of blindsided by it and went through, you know, several months of feeling really awful, you know, just about myself and thinking about, you know, what the hell am I going to do?

I feel like I’m starting over again because I just got laid off in November. Right? And I just, you know, I was lucky enough to land a spot right away. So, things were. I was kind of riding high for a little bit, and then it was, “what am I going to do”? And then, aside from just feeling awful about sending out resumes all the time and not getting any response and trying to figure out where I wanted to, like, you know, did I really just want to jump right back into another agency or another company without really understanding, you know, what it is I want to do or what I’m good at. You know, I think we kind of all go through that. Imposter syndrome. Right? As a as a designer, you’re not really thinking about, you just kind of, you know, doing the work that’s handed to you. But as you kind of move up, you’re doing less in the weeds stuff, and you’re, you’re trying to be creative and, and lead a team.

And, you know, I like doing that stuff. But at the same time, I think there’s a lot of, yeah, there’s a, there’s a lot of that imposter syndrome out there. And then when you, when I’m going online and looking at LinkedIn, I just keep seeing story and story and story after, you know, and post and post after, of people going through the same things and feeling like crap because they’re sending out interview or, resumes to, to places and they’re just not hearing back or they’re getting ghosted, and it’s really disheartening. So, I, I went through a lot of, of that, feeling really disheartened, feeling really lost. And, you know, in trying to keep myself, engaged and feeling like I was being productive. I started working with a mentor creative coach who just advised me to, you know, start putting yourself out there, start posting on LinkedIn, start coming up with ideas and things that you can, comment on.

And one of them was the idea for the podcast. And originally, I think it was supposed to, you know, I think my idea was to I was thinking about helping people that were just starting out because I wanted to see  what are the differences with the kids coming out of school now? And, you know, especially in the program that I graduated from at Drexel.

So, my idea was to just kind of zone in on the, the Drexel kids, and maybe talk to the staff there, some of the professors that are still there from when I was there, and see if there could be something, a way to, you know, figure out what the youth is stepping into. But then also, maybe I could be a bit of a guide for them and then also, to talk to the professors about how things, what they’ve seen change, you know, creatively and culturally in the past 20 some-odd years. But then I just kept, coming back to the idea of trying to help and support people that were feeling the same way that I was.

Dan Gould

Yeah, I know the feeling, and I know it started. I feel like the advice is probably somewhat similar because, you know, up until maybe pre-pandemic or, or just post, you know, things were a lot more linear when you were thinking about like getting work and progressing and now things have gone completely non-linear and chaotic because like you said, putting resumes out just feels like shooting them into the void right now.

I’m both running my own business right now but also entertaining roles. So, I’m having both experiences and I was shocked one day when I actually got an email the same day from sending in a resume that was one that’s one out of hundreds.

So, the whole process is bizarre and there’s a lot of speculation of some of these jobs being ghost jobs and/or overly efficient AI systems automatically weeding people out. So, from both sides of the spectrum, whether you’re further along in your career or whether you’re younger, you don’t know what you’re going to get when you’re putting stuff out there. And I think your earlier point, and this is probably for younger people and people and more senior people, I think, both to give yourself something to do and kind of stay top of mind. You have to be out there and creating stuff and posting and putting, because otherwise it’s like you’re lost in the sea of thousands and millions of people who are in similar positions.

Bob Raynor

And even when you hit up your network, I feel like that’s the first way I would go to the network that I have people that are in agencies that I want to be at. Find a posting and ask them to put the referral in. I’ve done that dozens of times. It doesn’t seem to make a difference.

So, the only other way that you can stand out is to try to create and try to find ways to become visible, through the analytics and the algorithms and all that stuff. You got to do it.

Dan Gould

Yeah. I mean, it’s very much, a game of personal branding, which is sort of an overused term, but it’s kind of like you have to define yourself in some way. Not because there’s plenty of people that probably have lots of merit on paper or whatnot. But yeah, if you’re not kind of top of mind from that standpoint, it’s very easy to just get washed out.

I even look at some sort of adjacent industry like, doing research, whether that’s for designer or creative or marketing. And I even think about LinkedIn titles and how they all kind of consume the same. And so, you even have, I’ve experimented and kind of gone very rogue with my LinkedIn profile, just playing around with things because everything can kind of look the same if you don’t do something. So, I haven’t cracked the code, but, that’s one thing I’ve been thinking of. And the imposter syndrome, you know, I could I’ve gone through several kind of, sagas of what we’re talking about. So, I could jump back to my deep past, and then move to the present which might be interesting.

Bob Raynor

Yeah. I was I was wondering that it seemed like you’ve got a lot of experience with, from the strategic side with insights, innovation and culture, and how that all kind of blends together. And so, I feel like strategy and that line of work is something that creatives kind of fall into.

And maybe you’re not going to school saying “I want to be a strategist”. So, how did you kind of come into that intersection of creativity and strategy? Because I think it’s a good starting point to understand. You know, the whole where your mindset is in terms of what motivates you and finding what it is that you want to do or what your goal is in your career.

And that’s kind of where I started in that first episode. And I think it helps to kind of center yourself when you’re in a situation like this where you’re feeling really unsure, and then it’s kind of like, all right, where’s my north star a little bit? And it goes back to the beginning a little bit. So, if you could start there that’d be great.

Dan Gould

So, my background is very much from a creative background. Growing up I was really into comic books, into drawing and illustration and things like that. I went to I went to art school, I went to Syracuse University, just kind of, you know, So, the first year you kind of study all of different kinds of art.

And then I ended up doing video art, which sort of predates YouTube. It was just the famous video artists. I don’t know if you’re familiar with any of them, but it basically had kind of the most creative freedom, out of all the disciplines. And on the sideline, I was doing things like making fliers for parties that I was a DJ at.

I was slowly building up graphic design skills while going to art school. My only exposure to the industry that I’m in now was two things. One was Gerald Salant, who runs the Trends Research Institute. He’s one of the one of the older trend forecasters. And I read an article in Fast Company, which was super pivotal about this guy Watts Wacker.

So, he used to be at, Stanford. And then he started his own company, and he basically was doing kind of this cultural research. You know, this is pre- all these technologies we have right now. So, he was interviewing people. He would do things like go undercover and work at McDonald’s. He, even pretended to be a panhandler. He was like studying culture and all these unusual kind of, ethnographic ways and advising all these big companies about what’s coming next. His big book is called, “What comes after? What comes next?” And I was like, this is fascinating. I was like, this is so interesting because it’s deeply understanding what’s going on in the world and kind of being able to advise towards positive change.

I was reading a lot of Buckminster Fuller and things like that. These were really idealistic designers in the larger sense of the word. And so, that was what I had in the back of my mind that I wanted to get into this, but the industry was a lot smaller. And so, I just kind of had a seed planted and then in the meantime, I actually dropped out of college my senior year.

So, this is the adds to the saga because I kind of didn’t know where I was going. So, I got a bunch of jobs working in the printing industry and doing graphic design. But I always had this notion in the back of my mind that I really want to work in this field. And then slowly at the time, there started to be a lot of boutique agencies that were coming up and, well, I’ll tell the dramatic part of the story. So, I was working at his printing company. I was super dissatisfied with my life. It was it was a great job. And I quit spontaneously.

I was very stupid. I had like, $500 in my bank account. But in a weird twist of synchronicity, which is really where I got my start in this industry, was hiring interns, and I was probably close to 30 at this point. But it was sort of like I had never really kind of known how to find my way, or I was just kind of busy, you know, doing all this other stuff. So, I quit, got an internship at K, and I was writing articles for the blog. And then got brought on full time and started acting as a consultant. And I took over the website. And that was really sort of this big pivotal point where I got to now. And so, I guess some of the lessons, number one is taking risks. The job I had was actually, really good!

It was like the most money had ever made. It was making really good money. And so, it was partially a big gamble, but it was also, partially like I knew that’s what I wanted to do, and that that was sort of like a north star moment where I was like, I can’t ignore this because it’s going to kill me if I don’t do it. And so, then, it’s sort of been kind of a roller coaster, through smaller agencies, bigger agencies, and then work for myself now. And kind of as the industry has changed and now there was a super small amount of companies and groups doing trend forecasting, foresight strategy.

And now there’s like tons of them. So, it’s been really interesting to see how that shifted.

Bob Raynor

Has it changed? Kind of when you went through that experience of, you know, taking that gamble on yourself and kind of working with both large corporations like a Google or Reddit, and then coming into more boutique agencies. Has it kind of changed your perception on what it means to kind of be part of a strategic team and dig into culture? Like, do those companies treat it differently?

Dan Gould

Yeah, it kind of depends. I think one of the, one of the biggest differences is when you’re working with a smaller agency like Sparks and Honey are great examples because they were small, super nimble, scrappy, they are very much paid to kind of tell the truth about what’s going on.

There’s a lot less bureaucracy and a lot less kind of layers of stakeholders and things like that. So, I would say that’s one of the biggest differences is when you’re working inside a big company, there’s all of this sort of politics and all these people involved and sometimes you’re trying to, sort of cater to perceived perceptions instead of necessarily the truth of the market.

But it’s been eye opening working at both scales because it can be so different. I think you probably have a similar experience. You’ve worked for both like big organizations and smaller ones.

Bob Raynor

Yeah. You know, for me, being able to see the inside of a large company like Pfizer, it just proves that there’s a lot of politics at play. There’s a lot of red tape. There’s a lot of inefficiencies. I feel like I at one point when I was working at Pfizer, I had helped to kind of grow the team, the internal team in there from scratch. And even though we were kind of inside this, you know, playing within this big organization, it felt like there was a little sense of we were like rogue. We used to say that we were always going rogue because we were too small for anybody to really care. So, it felt like it was little fish in a big pond, but that it felt like we were, had a hand in something. That we were building something.

So, it was like that small boutique mindset within the larger corporation. And then once we started to grow and get bigger, and then people started noticing and, trying to kind of take over that thing, then it didn’t feel as good.

I think that’s kind of where I’m at now, where I’m like, you know, I really don’t know that I want to be part of that conglomerate or that large holding company, agency model, because I’ve seen too many people, you know, how they’re treated in that model as opposed to something that’s a little bit smaller and more manageable.

Dan Gould

100%. I’ve had both experiences inside the big companies. And also, I think there used to be a sense of security with these big companies and or holding COs, where, like, you were you, you felt some sort of sense of like, okay, this is going to be stable. But as we’ve seen with the layoffs across these big organizations, it’s no longer the case.

And I know a lot of people who still work inside of these companies. And they literally are in fear every day of something happening because it’s just numbers on a spreadsheet. But I’ll tell two stories about that. So, when I moved outside of boutique agencies and into Google, it was a huge culture shock.

And, even though it was amazing, everything, you know, the position, the team, I almost wanted to quit and go back the first week because it was so different. Some things were good, but it was just such a shock. But fortunately, my team was then able to move in that kind of more free fashion of like going rogue and having that creative freedom to kind of find these insights that were not normally brought to the table.

So, my team at Google was called Human Truth’s, and it was basically, a lot of these internal teams would just kind of put big numbers on a slide like, “here’s the big stat about what people are searching for.” But it wasn’t telling the human story. Like, why was this happening? What are the different reasons?

What are the nuances behind these behaviors. And so, that’s why we were brought in. So, we were kind of able to operate in that fashion for a while. Similar to your point, there comes a like unless you kind of really manage it well, there comes a time where the team starts to become too big or like you said, they’re kind of noticed by the larger group.

And then sort of those old behaviors start seeping back in. And that’s a great question, actually, for anyone running one of these teams who truly wants to keep it at its best. It’s like, how do you especially in a big organization, how do you maintain that culture? Because it’s basically I think, you know, and a lot of smaller agencies, it’s like, I know Summer Friday, you know, a lot of these agencies are trying to stay, right-sized because once you start growing too much, whether it’s inside of a big company or whether you’re an agency, all kinds of crazy things happen. And I don’t know if anyone’s completely cracked the code because it’s always a danger, especially inside these big companies.

Bob Raynor

Do you think that affects how, you may approach a project or your job, like if you know that you’re part of this big conglomerate and you kind of have to toe the line a certain way that maybe it keeps you from wanting to kind of step out of line, not step out of line. But you know what I mean? Like, I think a little bit, crazier, be a little bit more adventurous in that kind of stuff?

Dan Gould

Yeah. Because it becomes more about proving the current hypothesis instead of saying, actually, we should be doing something different. Actually, the reality is different. So, at Google we were talking about the future of health care or wellness, and we had a report we created just about big trends we were seeing in the industry. And we had Weight Watchers there one day they were doing the presentation for it. It was the CEO of Weight Watchers, the executive team. And this is when keto was first kind of starting to emerge. But it was not mainstream by any means, and it was basically so far removed from their model of reality that they were in disbelief.

They’re like, this can’t be true. This is fake. And we were like, well, it’s actually, you know, searches are growing. If you look at kind of anecdotal evidence, if you look at people we’ve talked to, it’s really worked for them. And there is some sort of historic precedent. So, a lot of times in my field of strategy and research, it’s helping to bring people into this future state because it’s so different than what they currently believe or what’s currently working.

And it’s a delicate balance too, because you want to have the timing too off. I think one of the mistakes a lot of people make is extrapolating behavior too soon. It’s what I would call flying car futurism, where it’s like they’re kind of talking about these spectacular things which aren’t really grounded in reality.

But yeah, that’s the thing. And then, but if the organization kind of isn’t more creatively free, they’re not going to say these things, they’re going to cater the research towards, the current belief systems as to not lose the client or whatnot. It’s a delicate balance.

Bob Raynor

You know, I was wondering about how you know, you are currently kind of you would consider yourself unemployed right now or just kind of between projects?

Dan Gould

Yeah. A little bit of both. So, basically. So, I’m running my one-person business. And the difficult thing about that is, you know, a lot of times you might start proposing a project, but the company’s not ready yet. It’s playing that waiting game. So, I’m doing a little bit of both, because I have some projects that are the projects I’m doing now, projects that I’m waiting to start.

Which, that’s very excruciating because it’s like they’re not never going to happen. But the timeline is out of your control mostly. Right? So, I can riff on that. But at the same time, I’m also, like, okay, if I find the right full-time position, I will go for that.

I will sunset most of my business, except for classes and newsletters and things like that. So, yeah, I think for me, the waiting game, whether you’re talking about waiting to hear back for applications you put out or waiting for clients to come in, that’s been the worst for me because it’s just like time moves so slow when you’re waiting for these things. It’s like waiting for something to come in the mail.

Bob Raynor

And you feel like you don’t have much control over, you know, if in a position like yours, when you’ve worked with companies, it’s like they’re looking for to you for insights and answers all the time and like, hey, tell us how we should approach this, you know, project or this problem or give us the information we need to hit our sales goals or whatever the case may be.

And then when you are without that, it’s like, well, do I have my own personal strategy? You know, have you thought about becoming your own strategist and using your skills to approach how you either land a new gig or get new business or find what it is that motivates you? Can you use that to your advantage?

Dan Gould

I do. So, it’s sort of like which hat to I put on today? Do I put on the “send out resumes and look for jobs” hat? Do I put on the “let me develop some new content” or like I have a couple of classes that I teach live and I’m like, “okay, do I sit down to record the online version?”

I think that’s sort of the challenge of like, “what do I do today?” Because it’s like I could do all of these different things. Which one is going to have the highest payoff? Probably the one I’ve leaned into the least is like applying for jobs in the traditional sense because one strategy is to apply to anything that kind of might be in your wheelhouse versus, this looks really good.

And so, that’s one thing that I’ve changed is, I won’t apply unless it looks like a really solid fit, both for skills or both the company. Because I know in some ways it’s a bulk numbers game. Like you see some of these posts of people who track it and they’re like, I’ve sent out 350 different resumes, and I’ve only gotten back five calls, two interviews.

So, to me, the volume play, I don’t think it’s worth it. I think it’s too stressful. That people say they’re forced to do it. So, for me, it’s focusing on that specifically or you were talking earlier about, you know, kind of doing it through networks. I think that’s still good. So, that would be the one challenging thing of being in between, which is I think, where a lot of us find ourselves.

But yeah, I’ve also, had advice from people who say, okay, you just got to structure your time. So, maybe one day a week is for traditional job search, Then one day a week is for doing your content. So, yeah, I think you’re right.

You totally do have to come up with some sort of strategy because otherwise, every day is a blank slate in kind of the worst possible way.

Bob Raynor

So, in that way, it seems like, and I’ve been through this myself. It’s where I just started when I really felt like I started to come out of the funk that I was in. It was just as simple as opening up the notes app on my phone and getting everything out of my head and saying, you know, all right, I don’t have a job.

I’m sitting here in my room, in my house, feeling bad for myself, feeling like I’m not productive in any way or not good at anything in any way. So, I’m just like, all right, what can I accomplish? Whether it was the most meaningless task around the house. And I could physically start to check things off, right? And then that went from, do the dishes and fold the laundry to, hey, I’m going to do this.

I’m going to create this prop for my Halloween display out in front of my house.

Dan Gould

100 percent.

Bob Raynor

I’m going to take the time to do that and feel like I’m being creative. So, it was the daily checklist. And then it was the checklist that forced me to be creative and work with my hands. And then it was, all right, now I’m going to, you know, I kept leveling up as I went. And even that forced me to change my strategy, like you said, with sending out resumes.

It was the first few weeks were just, bombard LinkedIn with my resume and try to get it out, apply to as many jobs. And now it’s, all right, I’m trying to be a little bit more targeted. I’m using AI to maybe help me craft a custom cover letter, or just the copy on my resume. That stuff takes a little bit more time, but it feels like maybe you have an, another shot or a better shot at getting something.

So, and then it’s just the pet projects, which hopefully, can turn into something kind of like this. I know that you’ve now become the CEO of, of an AI music label. So, talk to me about how you’re using  your creative brain to, kind of have some fun.

Dan Gould

So, I want to jump to jump back to your small wins thing later, but it’s super important. But yeah. So, Latent Space Disco. I’ve got my stickers here. So, this came out of two things. Number one, I’ve been using AI slowly but surely, and just this last summer, a lot of really crazy developments have happened, which I’ve been heavily tracking and involved with. And then I started using it to make some music and  it was incredibly fun.

And so, I was like, okay, this is I’m going to actually release this music. I’m going to come up with a record label. And, yeah, I mean, it was partially because I was just really into it, but also, giving me something kind of creative to do to output outside of business stuff.

And it’s so funny, my post, announcing that I was the CEO of, Latent Space, just got so much traction on LinkedIn. I think the algorithm somehow spin. I can almost guarantee you they spin those up. I had hundreds of comments and likes, and I think some people didn’t get that it was my label.

So, that’s been good. And I’ve, I used it. So, it was a great thing because even though I come from a DJ background, I had to learn how you distribute music and I’ve found platforms to do it for you. So, my songs are on all the platforms. You’re probably doing this for the podcast.

So, that was really good. And I think it was a great creative outlet that wasn’t just staring at my screen, like make business happen. And so, to jump back, one of the most important things for me is to get off the computer because otherwise I’m grinding at the computer, looking at LinkedIn, doing posts.

So, I think, number one, your strategy of small wins is super important because it’s easy to feel like you’re overwhelmed with this task of trying to break out of where you are to get to where you want to go next. So, for me, getting off the computer, doing little things around the house, leaving the house. It’s a big thing for me because it’s like very easy if you work from home to never barely go out.

So, I think doing the little wins thing is important. Getting off the computer, whether it’s, you know, even if you’re going for walks and you can take notes and have AI transcribe it or whatnot, that’s been really useful. I’ve also used AI to like help me like craft cover letters or resume or copy.

But I don’t know if you’ve, played with the advanced voice mode on ChatGPT, you can actually talk to it like you would a friend or a therapist. It’s fascinating.

Bob Raynor

That’s cool. I’ve started. I just turned on the canvas option for it. So, when you go in, you can then select certain things and ask them to change. But I haven’t used the voice feature yet, so, I’ve been in ChatGPT heavily, helping with certain things, even the podcast. But I’m going to have to check out the voice feature.

Dan Gould

Yeah. It’s pretty amazing. Also, another experiment I’ve been doing is I’ve built a bunch of bots which live in Discord. So, this is one of the there’s a I think it’s called shapes, shapes AI. And so, I just discovered that they had these bots running on different discords. And so, I’ve created a bunch of them that are on my kind of like professional network Discord.

And I’ve made a couple for myself. So, I don’t know, it’s weird. It’s like building a little support network, of AIs. It sounds kind of crazy unless you experience it and you can program them to do different things. Because that’s the thing. Like, I don’t know if there’s that much, this is a great point of like, in-person sort of support groups for people going through these challenges. I made a Discord for a handful of people. It was called “Job Bored” like bored of the search. That I mean, that might be a thing.

A lot of people are scared of Discord. Those are not on a ton. But I think there’s a need for that. I think, there may be groups, but maybe I don’t know, because I think it’s mostly people just doing these posts about what’s going on and then the conversation sort of happens in the comments.

But I think there’s probably a real need for some sort of, you know, both from a practical standpoint of like, what are strategies and tactics that are working for all of us, but also, just, support group because otherwise it’s just very kind of like public thing on LinkedIn, which I think sometimes can be good, but sometimes, you know, people had to use the “I’m desperate” flag. I don’t know if you saw that on their profile picture.

Bob Raynor

Yeah, I’ve seen people doing fun or new things with their avatar adding different flags and just putting posts out there that they’re at their wit’s end and they’re doing anything to get seen. So, yeah, I think it’s gotten a lot of traction.

Dan Gould

Yeah, I think it’s a good thing. But I feel like there’s probably a need for some more of it. Like a private group scenario. I also, do research. Maybe these things exist.

Bob Raynor

So, this one I had just come across, one that popped up for me literally right after I posted about the podcast. It was something called “Laid Off”. There’s a woman, I forget her name, sorry, off the top of my head, but it’s same thing. It’s a discord community and people talking about, you know, it’s a support group or online support group that’s not cutting through the noise of LinkedIn.

And there’s a little bit separate because I think you’re right. I’ve spent hours sitting and staring at LinkedIn and just doom scrolling LinkedIn. And sometimes you get a little bit inspiration and sometimes it just makes you feel worse because you’ve got hundreds of people out there applying to jobs or posting their hardships, and it’s tough for everybody.

Dan Gould

LinkedIn needs to understand their own platform better because for people who are putting content out or looking for work, those notifications are super important. But then you’ll get a notification for some whatever. That’s like, you know, some random person in your network posted there. So, that’s frustrating is a LinkedIn user.

And then also, having the same experience of being on LinkedIn constantly. I’m not sure what it’s become. It can be a great place, but it’s also a bizarre place right now. And it also, feels very singular. It’s like where else can you kind of have this professional or semiprofessional networking?

Bob Raynor

Right. Have you been put into an AI group chat yet? LinkedIn have, you know, where they ask you for your, I’ve gotten requests to be added to a group chat with similar people, whether it’s creative directors or creative professionals. And you’re just lumped in with people that may have the same kind of looking for work tags or the same title, and then there’s a bot in there that just tries to generate conversation, and people are like, what is this?

You know, they’re in there for three seconds and sometimes it’ll ask the same question. It sounds like it doesn’t really do anything. It misses the mark and people just leave, you know? But it sounds like they’re trying to do something like that or with AI.

Dan Gould

And they have games on that too. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but they have.

Bob Raynor

That’s all we need is games.

Dan Gould

It’s becoming like a Yahoo. So, yeah, I mean, I don’t know, but not to go too far off tangent, but I think there’s a need in the marketplace or something different because your options right now are LinkedIn or, I don’t know, like Fiverr or I’m not sure. We’ve been talking about building up your own presence, maybe whether, like with your podcast, it’s developing a mailing list or, you know, kind of a community in that sense.

But let me, jump back to what you’re talking about. What have you learned from I don’t know if you did this yet, but what have you learned from the professors at Drexel and the younger generation, any insights? Or is it kind of a similar situation?

Bob Raynor

I didn’t actually get a chance to go down that route. I’m hoping to talk to people through this, add people and have people on that are just starting out, and maybe feeling overwhelmed. So, I definitely want to connect with those people, reconnect with the professors that I had and talk to people that are coming out of college.

So, I don’t have that insight just yet, but I can imagine it’s just as daunting as someone in our spot that’s trying to start feeling like they’re starting over.

Dan Gould

Yeah, by just reading of stories out in the media, it seems fairly similar. Another interesting thing is, just the people who are probably a little bit older than us two, there’s another wrench being thrown in the process of ageism, which is sort of fascinating and disturbing.

So, I think one of the challenges of being a more senior person is, they’re like, oh, they’re going to want more money, right? That’s probably what a lot of it comes down to. Then it’s like you’re fighting against, maybe people starting out with junior people, but then some of these people who are slightly older, it’s like they have to disguise their LinkedIn and then they have to make them. It’s so, messed up. Which is like another whole.

Bob Raynor

I’ve taken the dates off of when I went to college. You know, we have it on there because it’s part of a resume. But I’ve removed the dates because the thought has crossed my mind is like, is that factoring into people or the AI bot that’s looking at my resume? I don’t know.

Dan Gould

No, I wouldn’t be surprised. I have a friend of mine, Who, okay, It’s none of this is too, direct, but he’s in the creative field, like, really, unique, really highly skilled. And for whatever he’s facing, you know, both challenges of probably ageism, probably just the market itself. And so, he’s doing regular jobs right now to pass the time and make money. I won’t say what it is because it would be too specific, but, and I know there’s other people that are thinking of that, and it’s kind of wild. In some ways it’s good because it gets you off of this doom scrolling LinkedIn.

But on the other hand, it’s like you’re not in the game. So, how do you divide that time?

Bob Raynor

Right? How how are you approaching that? I mean, has the thought crossed your mind about shifting your focus or changing your focus when it comes to the next stage of your career?

Dan Gould

Yeah. So, one of the main things, which is a lot more labor intensive, but it pays off over time is sort of like kind of owning, like, So, I’ve done this online class, and I’m making a video version and I’ve put out some sort of free material that people are really interested in.

So, it’s just shifting the focus of who my, my market is, right? There’s going and getting an official W-2 job or consulting for those levels of clients. But then there’s another kind of market for what I do is people in my industry.

So, that’s been one shift, which I’m trying to navigate of moving over a portion or maybe all of what I do, to serving a new market. So, it’s just been a mindset shift because the offering is going to be slightly different. The price points are obviously gonna be different. That’s been one.

I have thought about being a mailman or something, so I could take my mornings walk, getting a lot of exercise and then having that cushy government job in the background while building my business the other part of the day. Haven’t pursued that yet. So, those are two things of shifting strategies.

The other thing which I need to work on better is, my kind of market for my skills is very much within the world of advertising/marketing. And so, I think, thinking outside of that, the research I do could be useful for financial institutions or for other groups that aren’t within this kind of this kind of bubble.

And so, that’s something I’ve been thinking about too, about how do I market myself, reach these people. So, it’s simultaneously figuring out what’s really resonating within that kind of core market or community that I serve, because I think, for me, it’s worked being within this world.

But I think, thinking outside that is super important. So, that’s something that I’ve been thinking recently about like different avenues or just markets. How about you have is that is your strategy shifted at all?

Bob Raynor

Yeah. I mean, I think, my experience has been the majority of pharma, right? And there’s no lack of  pharma agencies or jobs out there. I applied to hundreds of them. And, the Northeast Corridor tends to be very much pharma centric. But it’s having that self-doubt of, I’ve been in pharma for so long, would it make sense at this point for me to try to switch to retail? Or what do I know about consumer products or B2B that’s not necessarily related to life sciences, right? And so, I tend to shy away from those, applications because I’m already frustrated with the amount of resumes being sent out and not hearing back am I going to throw it out there for that, where I know I’m definitely not going to hear back?

I don’t know, I think it’s kind of a mindset change that you have to go through and just trust your skills. You know, applying, I think you said trying to apply that are kind of adjacent to your to your skills. And not being afraid to, you know, what’s the worst that’s going to happen?

Just like any other thing you apply to if you don’t hear back. Oh well, at least you know, you apply to maybe you do hear back. I think one of the things, and I used to always kind of I should take my own advice. When I was back at Pfizer in the early days and we were still hiring designers, I was not afraid to look at or talk to people that didn’t have pharma experience, because you can do a lot, right?

There’s processes and procedures, and if you’ve got good leadership and good workflows in place, if they’re a good designer, they’re going to catch on. They’re going to do well in pharma, just as if you know that work that translates from one large corporation to another, maybe going from pharma to finance or something. It’s all relatable.

And if you have people in there that are good leaders and there’s a good process in place, the best designer that I ever hired wasn’t from pharma at all. You know, most of the people that I hired at the time were from, magazine production or print production or packaging or, B2B didn’t have any pharma experience, and they turned out to be some of the best designers and best creatives.

Dan Gould

100%. I think, you know, you shoot yourself in the foot if you just keep hiring more of the same. Right? Because they’re not going to bring anything new. So, that’s number one. I agree with you. I think if someone has the core skills or the capabilities, they could be taught the industry. It’s why it’s very frustrating when you see a lot of jobs that are, must have this certain experience when, you know that what you do can totally translate.

So, I think for companies in general, having a non-homogenous, workforce is advantageous. Although I feel like they probably get scared in weird economic times, but that’s how you break out of it by getting new points of view.

Bob Raynor

Absolutely. And I think this goes back to what we talked about earlier, where, you know, a lot of people in leadership are being let go, and then there’s this large gap, and then you’ve got people that are coming up that are juniors that are trying to figure it out. And there is that gap of leadership that could help bring people along and teach people the ropes.

And I think it’s kind of a vicious cycle, right? When you when you lose people that have that experience, that can train and teach and mentor, when that group of people is now gone because their companies are trying to save money or for whatever reason, then the industry suffers.

Dan Gould

Yeah. I mean, that’s knowledge. That is genuine lived and earned knowledge. And I think you’re spot on. And then what’s left is junior people who haven’t maybe seen the full spectrum of like, they kind of only know the now, in the worst sense of the word. I mean, that’s a larger conversation too, just in general, of being so hyper focused on the now and not thinking through the what. I don’t know, it’s a really big story.

It’s sort of how, a lot of the old internet is disappearing. And so, a lot of this this lived knowledge, is harder and harder to access.

Bob Raynor

I just kind of want to get back to your experiences. And, I’m still kind of, you know, the fact that you mentioned when you were still young in your career, that you bet on yourself and quit your job and all that stuff to kind of go for what it is that you, thought would make you successful and what you loved is intriguing.

And it sounds terrifying, right? So, now that you’re where you are now, has the definition of success changed for you compared to when you kind of started in the industry or made that decision to bet on yourself, and now that you’re between projects or you’re trying to get things off the ground, has your perception of success changed in what you want in your career?

Dan Gould

Yeah, that’s a great question. So, a couple of different things. I think there’s a lot of superficial success, right? That I think can come whether it’s a job title or giving speeches, which I’ve done.  And so, I don’t want to say all these things are superficial, but I think there’s a lot of   when you’ve gone through the process and where we are now, a lot of that superficial stuff doesn’t matter or kind of like, I don’t want to say being cool, but like, there’s like being efficient or being effective and then there’s like being I’ll say cool is a lack of a better term. It’s sort of a perception thing of where things you’re speaking at. Let me know if you’re getting this because it’s like there’s yeah, yeah. So, there’s like there’s like being good at what you do and then there’s these sort of accolades and coolness, for lack of a better term.

So, none of that matters to me anymore. It’s more for me. It’s number one. It’s like, obviously monetarily, you got to make a living. So, would you accept, what’s your baseline of I can’t do this work for less of this because it would be a waste of time because you could be pursuing other things.

So, it’s figuring out  what your baseline is. The other thing too is, not under charging, going all over the place. But, what’s your baseline? But also, not under charging if you’re doing your own work because that’s very easy these days. It’s like, you know I got it got to get some work.

So, it’s figuring out what your standards are. Both, realistically in both, it would be like kind of a waste of time to do work for that low of a thing. And I’ve seen people out there talking about this, and then it’s. Yeah, I think it’s about like doing the best work possible and or differentiating yourself.

So, this is a big thing. So, I’m looking at my corner of the industry and there’s tons of freelancers, tons of agencies of all size. And I think a lot of these big agencies will probably collapse to some degree, because it’s like with AI and all these tools, you know, big, big holding companies, big ad agencies, big research agencies, it’s only a matter of time.

So, it’s like you’re competing with all these different kind of players. And so, for me, I’m thinking about also, how to differentiate almost niche down to what I do versus what I don’t do. So, for example, a lot of people will produce trend reports that they’ll sell, right? And I have whole issues with that or the models, the models of business.

Looking at some of the agencies and the pitch process and all this stuff. So, I’ve been really inspired by people like, Brett from Design Joy, who he’s one of the first people who did this, like subscription based design service for a flat fee. And so I’ve been playing with the models for myself, too.

It’s easier for me. It’s probably easier for the clients of, for this flat fee, you can get these different types of deliverables. So, it’s, it’s both niching down about what I do. And I’ve been thinking a lot about this the last two weeks, versus projects that I probably wouldn’t do. So, it’s sort of limiting the scope and then how to stand out.

Right. So, it’s not like I offer this one specific thing, you can go hire these other companies to do the other parts of it, or you can do it internally. So, yeah, those are in this whole discussion. It’s figuring out what the floor is. And then figuring out different models.

And it also, niching your skills. What else? How about you? What are your what, what are the core things you’ve learned to this?

Bob Raynor

Yeah, I think to me, it’s just getting out of your own head and putting yourself out there, whether you’re, trying to noodle on starting a business or doing a pet project, like the podcast or the AI music, you can make a career out of pretty much anything.

And sometimes it’s driven by necessity because you’re out of work and you kind of have no choice. But sometimes you kind of have a good idea of what it is you want to do and what you’re passionate about. But I think you have to have a bit of resilience and try not to be, you know, I keep saying get out of your own head, but, don’t be afraid to do that.

You know, to me, it was terrifying to press record and then it was terrifying to press submit or, you know, post on LinkedIn. Because you’re afraid of what is going to happen. Or, you’re afraid of submitting a job application to a job that may not be right up your alley and in your specialty, but you think you may be able to handle it. You submit it anyway. And so, it’s a matter of doing it. And if you’re afraid to do it, do it scared. You know, I feel like that’s kind of been the big thing for me. And it started to bring me out of that funk that I was in.

So, I’m trying all these things. I’m trying to stay productive. And, you know, the idea that, three weeks ago, I didn’t have this podcast and now I have a guest on a podcast is mind blowing to me. But also, it’s exciting, you know? So, I’m trying to go back to the times when you know, what was I doing in my career when I felt excited about what I was doing?

And it’s like there seems to be a theme there for me at least, that I’m discovering is that when I was creating, I felt like I was creating something and owning something that I had some control over. It’s given me the most inspiration. And now I’m, you know, connecting with people like yourself or, you know, anybody else that kind of feels the same way.

So, yeah, I mean, what is that? What does that resilience look like for you in this kind of stage where you’re at?

Dan Gould

Yeah, I think I think to your point earlier, it’s about having these small wins and, things that you have control over because I think a big theme as we’ve been talking is the feeling of lack of control or lack of, yeah, lack of control because you’re up to the whims of the market if you’re not owning it.

And so, I think even if it just gives you that feeling to keep going, it’s worth doing it. And I think I guess the other thing too, is to talk to people outside of your industry. Like you said earlier, you can make a living doing anything. And I think it’s also, just important because it gives you inspiration and hope that there’s stuff outside of your world.

For example, I just met a guy in my town who he was recently laid off. A similar thing, laid off, a couple times in the last couple of years. And he had a podcast or has a podcast about, like, board games. So, he’s developing this business where he’s like, come and do board game parties, whether it’s for kids or for companies.

And so, it was great talking with him and kind of like giving him ideas that he might not have or like me getting inspiration because on one hand I’m like, that’s crazy. But it also, could work. So, I think it’s important to break out of the bubble of LinkedIn or your industry, both for advice, inspiration.

And just to show you that there’s a world outside of your world.

Bob Raynor

Yeah. I think that my closing question to you was going to be, what’s that one piece of advice you could give a job seeker in this environment or even thinking back to you’re in the environment right now. And it’s like, what advice are you going to give to your younger self, to help you get through these types of situations?

Dan Gould

Let’s see. So, it’s sort of like I’ll go back to when I first got into my industry. So, I had started, my own got a couple blogs, which I wanted to get into blogging and trend forecasting. Those are my two big goals. So, before, there was no genuine route to kind of, go to the school for it at that point and get it.

So, I had to kind of, not fake it. I make it, but kind of like act as if. So, I said, okay, I’ll just start my own blog. I’ll start writing about these topics. And then that sort of gave me both the confidence and also, a small body of work that I could show off.

So, I would say for anyone who’s trying to either level up, get a new field, just start engaging or creating content. Around whatever that is. And just putting yourself out there, that’s the main thing, I think, just simply sending out resumes. It clearly does not work for a lot of people.

So, you have to create something, outside of that very linear path, whether it’s a podcast or whether it’s posting on LinkedIn or, doing your own social media. I think for all stages, of people, you have to figure out some version of that these days, because otherwise you’re just another name and like a sea of people.

And so, I did that and my advice is the same for myself now, just figuring out, what angle is going work both for you and your audiences. And then always be expanding your network. I think your network is not just LinkedIn.

It’s everyone you’ve worked with and there’s lots of advice about staying in touch with people and reaching out, and then expanding your network outside of your world.  So, meeting people from all kinds of industries, whether it’s just a friendship or whether you get some advice from it or you maybe get some work.

So, I think those would be. Yeah, those are all, some version of that is always going to work. There’s just there’s no downside to all of that.

Bob Raynor

Yeah. I think the thing that I’ve learned, about this and the advice that I would give is, there’s a lot of people out there that want to provide support. You know, there’s a lot of people that are in the in the same situation, in the same in the same bucket and, you know, I think about that quote, from Fred Rogers where it’s, you know, and when there’s, in times of, of struggle or, you know, bad things are happening, you look for the helpers, right?

That’s the advice. Look for the helpers. And, you know, they’re out there. People want to support you to start seeing these things crop up, like the discords and, the mentors that are out there offering services and help, it’s definitely helped me to be able to find a positive route through my own unemployment.

And trying to find out what I want to do and where I want to go. So, don’t be afraid to reach out. I would say is kind of my advice to people.

Dan Gould

100%. Well, thank you for creating this podcast because I think it becomes sort of a beacon of that, there are people to reach out to because other otherwise, I think a lot of people probably don’t know where to go.

Bob Raynor

Yeah. And that’s kind of my goal here really, is just to, to try to help in some way. Because, we all need it for sure. So, hopefully that brings a little bit of exposure to people. But also, kind of exposes that, everyone’s gone through a lot of the same thing.

And, you know, there’s hope out there.

Bob Raynor

Thank you So, much to Dan Gold for being my first ever guest on the show. And thank you for joining me on the Flame podcast. There’s definitely more to come. Please take a moment to subscribe if you haven’t already, and if you have any feedback or you’d like to join me on the show, send me a message. I’d love to hear from you.